tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2062509833711600070.post5982714296544841953..comments2024-01-19T04:00:42.885-05:00Comments on Permanent Revolution: Trotskyism and traditionAlex Steinerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09128453587484101609noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2062509833711600070.post-2319177449967858382018-06-21T11:29:12.159-04:002018-06-21T11:29:12.159-04:00Correction to my previous post. I meant to say Sho...Correction to my previous post. I meant to say Show Trial of the Left SR's not Purge Trial.muskratnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2062509833711600070.post-17567767969821210102018-06-21T10:33:08.951-04:002018-06-21T10:33:08.951-04:00You maintain I am offering "hopelessness dres... You maintain I am offering "hopelessness dressed up as an argument." How much study and research have you done in this area? There is a mountain of useful information available to look through. Richard Heinburg,Dmitri Orlov,John Michael Greer,and James Kunsltler, all come to mind as writers that have made some good contributions regarding the peak resource predicament. I do not advocate nor support many of their political conclusions but on the matter of depleted non renewable resources and human over population they make some convincing arguments. I would suggest that one big reason that the left including the bulk of the Trotsyist tendencies out there don't like to address this topic is that it can upset their narrative, namely that the communist future will be one of material abundance created by advanced industrial technology. When oil and other non renewable become less available and more energy intensive to extract (which is happening at this very moment) then it will take more not less human labor to maintain a complex civilization. This must inevitably impact the Marxist view of the communist future. <br /><br />Around 15 years ago I decided to do something that I really should have done much longer ago. I began to study the writings of some of those Marxist tendencies that had disputes Lenin, and Trotsky as well. I read Otto Ruhle,Gorter,and in particular Paul Mattick sr, and discovered that the Council Communists made some cogent points. Even Schactman had some relevant things to say before his swing to the right. I had the good fortune to have access to a world class research university library, and at one point occasionally read some interesting things,like an account of the first purge trials by the Bolshevics led by Trotsky against the Left SR's. But before I digress further I will make the point that there are other revolutionary Marxist tendencies around besides the Trotskyist. With a "phone book" quantity Trotskyist groups around to chose from, which ones are the authentic ones I wonder. When Trotskyists talk of Trotsky they mean the post 1917 revolution Trotsky and really not so much the Trotsky prior. When I speak of a "sell by date" I am referring specifically to those writings that are related to a world that no longer exists. That is one reason that people don't go back to Marx's writings and programs relating to Europe in the 1840's very often. The world of monarchs and small kingdoms is gone. Likewise the further from departure we go from Trotsky's death the greater the possibility that his programs will not retain their relevance. Orthodox Trotskyists like the Spartacist folks might consider collecting all of Trotsky's writings and creating an algorithm. That way they would never have any doubt as to the correct Trotskyist position. <br /> muskratnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2062509833711600070.post-65661930453902930562018-06-18T13:26:31.903-04:002018-06-18T13:26:31.903-04:00Stan,
You are making pronouncements about matters...Stan,<br /><br />You are making pronouncements about matters that you really know nothing about and doing it with an air of authority. For instance your conviction about the "tribal" nature of homo sapiens and your statement that homo sapiens killed off Neanderthals and that this was "ethnic cleansing". Where did you get that information from? Contemporary anthropologists are not so eager to make such definitive statements as you are making. All we know for sure is that the Neanderthals disappeared as a distinct group about 40,000 years ago. We also know from DNA evidence that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens interbred. There are theories that Neanderthals were wiped out by diseases that the Homo Sapiens inadvertently brought with them from Africa when they migrated into Europe. There are other theories that they were displaced culturally by the more advanced Homo Sapiens which also implies that they were not physically exterminated. And there are those theories that they were hunted down by Homo Sapiens. We don't at this point know which of these theories is true and possibly whether some combination of them are true. But you make your pronouncements on the basis of your belief that humankind is essentially barbarous. I think this is little more than a displaced religious conviction about original sin that you are carrying over. You do not have any understanding that humans have the capacity for empathy as well as the need to compete for scarce resources. In fact most of the higher animals have the same capacity for empathy. It's what makes cooperation and solidarity possible. <br /><br />Your statement that the October Revolution was nothing more than a "left wing coup" is also based on ignorance. Anyone who has read Alexander Rabinowitch's history of the revolution, The Bolsheviks Come to Power - not to mention Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution -will know better. But I think you are going to believe what you want to believe in order to justify your pessimism about humanity. So be it.Alex Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09128453587484101609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2062509833711600070.post-11598442490078946872018-06-18T03:05:33.312-04:002018-06-18T03:05:33.312-04:00Hi Frank,
I'm glad you responded. You've a...Hi Frank,<br />I'm glad you responded. You've accused my view as "ignorance dressed up as ideas." Can you explain what you mean by that? What I said about tribal mentality and the Oct. 1917 revolution I regard as true. The removable of the Neanderthals by Homo Sapiens is an acknowledged fact as is the Leninist takeover in Oct. 1917 the result of a left wing mecoup, a holding action by the Bols. until the left wing uprising of the German proletariat would get the rev. ball rolling worldwide.<br />That was a mistake which resulted in the horrors of Stalinism. <br />I have much faith in the intellectual abilities of the working classes but Marx didn't. That's why we have you guys to interpret Marx for them. This is well known, by you too! Dialectics plays the key role here, am I right? Marxists present the appropriate rev. path, yes? I wish you'd explain how this happens. Your best analysis was your coverage of the non use of the existence of the power of the Iraqi oil unions in 2003, its omission a terrible mistake committed by the WSWS people when they backed a cleric instead.<br />I feel blessed to have suffered your attempts to demean me - sarcastically saying I've found the meaning of history. Can you explain the process by which you've found this to be the case? You've avoided the tribal mentality bit, which I believe is the case explaining much of history. Marx believed the workers not receptive to Marxism, he believed the masses needed to be lead, thus the Bol. Party. He believed Marxist knowledge to be beyond the reach of the masses. I didn't say this, he did, otherwise you would be out of a job.<br />There is no need to insult me by attempting to misunderstand my motives, which you claim are an exercise in narcissism. <br />What does this mean? Why would you attack the messenger as well as the message? You do away with civility to get personal.I'm certainly not blessed with enlightenment. You mis <br />understand my motives - which you say are "an exercise in narcissism." Why would you try to attack the messenger and not the message? I'm on your side. I've been blessed with the same vituperation with which you accuse the WsWS people of hurling against you. I'm not versed with the attack- counterattack reflex that you guys withdraw into in the context of dialectical accusations or D. discussions. I'm probably punching above my weight here, but I believe you people can't step out of an argument to look at the whole of it. I'll feel; much better when someone can explain what Dialectics are and why their importance. I'm eager to learn.<br /> Stan Rosebergnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2062509833711600070.post-60307668058919442302018-06-17T13:12:17.876-04:002018-06-17T13:12:17.876-04:00I should have said that the postwar years were a R...I should have said that the postwar years were a RELATIVE period of peace and prosperity. I was discussing this in broad strokes. But given that qualification, it's absurd to deny that there was any difference between the postwar boom and the preceding decades of depression and war. And equally that there isn't a stark contrast between the boom years and today's world. It's a contrast that millions of workers understand with painful clarity: their parents' and grandparents' generations could reasonably expect their kids to have a better life than them, but now the expectation is very different - children will be worse off than their parents. If you don't think that has huge political implications, then you're being deliberately obtuse.<br /><br />As for the rest of what you have say about "tribal mentality etc." and about the Bolshevik revolution, I'm afraid I don't see much more than ignorance dressed up as ideas. But one point I would like to make: you don't seem to have much faith in the intellectual abilities of the working class, but you also feel that you yourself have figured out the meaning of history. How is it that you have been so blessed with enlightenment whereas you believe that blessing is beyond the reach of the great mass of humanity? Might it not be the case that your ideas are less an insight into history and more an exercise in narcissism? Just a thought.<br /><br />Frank BrennerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2062509833711600070.post-64706413154317247782018-06-17T08:22:53.922-04:002018-06-17T08:22:53.922-04:00Frank,
My 2nd posting regarding your comment that ...Frank,<br />My 2nd posting regarding your comment that 1945-1991 was a brief period of peace and prosperity before the downside of capitalism re-emerged stronger than ever. The Vietnam Wars, the Korean war, Chinese communism's victories, the partition of India, the mess in middle and South America (the OAS), and so on, puts payed to the idea of peace and prosperity then. We are tribal, genetically wired to push until we are stopped - for many individuals and certainly for nation states. Homo Sapiens killed off the Neanderthals - ethnic cleansing 100,000 B.C.<br />I'm a fan of your dispute with the SEC and D. North. I don't know who's right. I still don't know what either of you mean by dialectics, just a simple explanation will do. Isn't this the core of your dispute with the SEP? Enlightening workers? Preparing them for the penultimate uprising to throw out capitalism for worker domination of the world? <br />The trouble is that Marxism is an intellectual pursuit, its holy scriptures understood & interpreted only by intellectuals - Marx had no faith in his working classes understanding his economic ideas so he said one needed a Party to explain these to then.<br /> Only with the addition of war in 1917 was the Russian Revolution possible. Russia was a basket case before 1914 and when war came, causing millions of casualties by the criminal incompetence of the 'leadership' was the revolution possible.<br />So the Bolsheviks took power and implemented the dictatorship of the proletariat via war communism and the red terror. The cure was almost as bad as the disease.<br />I don't see many workers in the SEP or in your readership on the perm-rev blog. It's almost as bad as slogging through M.A. or PhD. papers.<br />Stan R.Stan Rosebergnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2062509833711600070.post-26131517234332758732018-06-16T09:47:13.100-04:002018-06-16T09:47:13.100-04:00Frank,
Just a brief note about your comment that t...Frank,<br />Just a brief note about your comment that the post war era, 1945-1991, was an anomaly, a brief period of peace and prosperity before the downside of capitalism re-emerged stronger than ever. Well, the Vietnam Wars, 1946-1975, the Korean War, 1950-1953, the Communist victory in China, 1949, the partition of India.... and so on and<br /> the continuing deep poverty of the First and Second Worlds should put paid to that idea. Are we genetically doomed to never get beyond this fence, that the highest morality is that we take care of our own and bugger the rest? A tribal mentality?? Don't go soft on me here.<br />I am a fan of your disputes with the SEQ. Frank, if 2% of the body politic voted for the extreme left in the U.S. elections in the Great Depression, what are the chances for Marxism there today? Conditions for revolution would have to be equal to those in Russia in 1917 and these would be terrible; the 1917 cure in Russia turned out to almost be worse than the disease. I know about the conditions then, even so, the Bolsheviks made sure their tribe was strongest by enforcing the Red dictatorship to survive and win the civil war. Is this what Marx meant by the dictatorship of the proletariate? <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11390890467020753734noreply@blogger.com